Welcome to the Members’ Forum! This page is dedicated to members only for sharing ideas on how women can get more out of their sexual relationships with men. Please show your support by leaving a positive comment.

Let’s face it, very few couples are lucky enough to have a sexual relationship where they can talk openly about female sexual arousal and orgasm. Ways Women Orgasm is for couples who are looking for ways to improve on what they already have.

If you are in a long-term sexual relationship of any kind then you are probably unusual. If you have moved beyond missionary style intercourse and can discuss more general pleasuring as a couple then you are almost certainly exceptional.

I don’t expect everyone to agree with me. Ways Women Orgasm PROVOKES debate by offering a DIFFERENT view to other sources. Tell me if you disagree but please provide a reasoned explanation that tallies with the facts of women’s sexuality, together with supporting evidence either from women’s real life experiences or from the published conclusions of the experts.

If you have not found any answers elsewhere you may find my more logical presentation helpful. If not, then no harm done. Women should feel free to share their experiences whatever they are. At the end of the day much of what is said about sex is purely opinion. If we are to find a common basis for discussion, we have to first find other people who share our own opinions.

Ultimately the aim is for Ways Women Orgasm to facilitate an open and constructive dialogue, covering questions or experiences from women and their partners, who are interested in understanding more about female sexuality.

Please feel free to ask or share as you like…

Ways Women Orgasm – the sexuality forum where female orgasm matters

There is a scene in the film ‘The Chicken Run’ (2000) where Ginger, our hero, returns from solitary confinement after her umpteenth escape failure. Another chicken tentatively suggests that, since the chances of them breaking out of the chicken farm are evidently ‘a million to one against’, perhaps Ginger should consider giving up on her dream.

A demoralised Ginger pauses to reflect for a moment and then quietly but resolutely, replies: ‘Then there’s still a chance!’ What a girl! At times, my experience of trying to bring more realism to modern day sex information has felt a little like the prospect of escaping from a concentration camp: so impossible that it has seemed futile even to try.

If you are a woman who is keen to learn how to masturbate then take a look at my stories How a woman can learn to masturbate and How to enjoy your sexual fantasies.

If you are a woman who can masturbate to orgasm but struggles with orgasm during sex, you may be reassured to read: Men hope a lover will enhance their sexual arousal, Women who fake orgasm and How we enjoy our best orgasms.

If you are interested in the conclusions of the experts about how women reach orgasm with a partner then read my stories: How to orgasm, Techniques women use to reach orgasm and Positions and techniques for sexual intercourse.

If you have tried every PHYSICAL stimulation technique in the book then read my stories about women’s PSYCHOLOGICAL sexual arousal: Clitoral stimulation is not everything and Women’s sexual arousal relies on sexual fantasies.

It takes trust and practice to explore some of the naughtier ideas for making the most of a sexual relationship, including anal sex and vaginal fisting. Take a look at Some women do explore sexual pleasure and How a woman can enjoy sex play.

Ways Women Orgasm is not offering specialist advice about sexual problems. Lack of female orgasm during sex is rarely a dysfunction. It is simply a normal state of affairs for any woman who realises that something is missing from sex. Unless diagnosed with a specific medical condition, every woman can assume that she and her sexual experiences are quite normal.

75 Comments »

1. We always start a sex session with my partner stimulating me. We use a large towel and waterproof sheet on the bed as well as plenty of baby oil and Liquid Silk, which you can get from any decent sex shop. The book ‘The Big Bang: Nerve’s Guide to the Sexual Universe’ by Emma Taylor & Lorelei Sharkey is brilliant for removing some of the taboo of anal sex for women and for introducing some new techniques such as vaginal fisting.

   Comment by sam — July 12, 2009 @ 2:49 pm

2. One of my favourite erotic books is ‘Mixed Doubles’ by Zoe le Verdier. I like the scene where her boyfriend offers her body to an older man in the changing rooms. Also the scene at the end where they have anal sex.

   One of my favourite porn movies is ‘Erotic Stories’ by James Avalon (distributed by archel in the UK). I like the scene at the beginning where she is having sex with her husband and another man in a different room at the same time. Farcical but fun!

   Comment by sam — September 23, 2009 @ 8:21 am

3. Hi, Jane.
   I congratulate you on your open-ness and also on your stated efforts to find answers to your lack of orgasms in your vaginal sexual intercourse. I realise that your site is mainly aimed at women, especially those who do not easily achieve orgasm. However, there is some worthwhile reading here for many men too.

   You have posted a lot of information here on your site, some of which I totally agree with and some that I at least have doubts about. For instance, I personally have seen several women achieve what they ‘claimed’ was an orgasm without so much as once touching their clitoris or even their vulva. All they did was to run their hands slowly and sensually over various parts of their bodies, including their breasts and their bellies until they went into what appeared to be an orgasm. I have seen two who only massaged their breasts and nipples and ‘claimed’ to have an orgasm.

   I personally have massaged the area within the vagina that is commonly termed the G-spot for several women and they ‘claimed’ that they acheived orgasms from it.

   You have a wonderful day. Best wishes. Deas Plant.

   Comment by TantricMasseur — January 4, 2010 @ 6:51 pm

4. Thanks for your positive feedback.

   I think that books could certainly be written about how women CLAIM to orgasm! My challenge has been to discuss how women truly do orgasm (in a way that men would understand i.e. through genital stimulation). I wish as many women were open to discussing this topic as men are. Unfortunately, men do not have a woman’s body and so they cannot know how differently a woman responds. Women get hard-ons much less frequently, for example.

   My point is that men would not consider approaching orgasm without stimulating their genitals (and having a hard-on first). Many men dislike using a condom precisely because of the reduced genital stimulation. Why would anyone NOT want to stimulate their genitals since this is how both sexes reach orgasm? The explanation is that women are rarely aroused enough for genital stimulation to lead to orgasm.

   Women do not become aroused as easily as men do. I agree with John Gray that men are much MUCH more sexual than women both physiologically and biologically. The only way I have been able to achieve sufficient sexual arousal for orgasm is through the use of highly focused sexual fantasy. Most women I talk to are shocked by any form of eroticism so it’s not clear how they ever get turned on enough for orgasm.

   The vagina has very few never endings (since it is part of the birth canal) and so it is no failure for a woman to have little sensation from intercourse. The phenomenon you are describing is one where women are enjoying the touch and feel of their own body but this does not lead to female orgasm any more than it would for a man if he did the exact same thing. Women use such sexual teasing techniques as a male turn-on.

   I have not found a woman yet who is able to explain these claims of orgasm without genital stimulation. As a man, you should know that orgasms don’t just happen. You also have to focus on erotic thoughts or emotions and many women do not understand this. They enjoy sensuality and loving emotions but not the crude sexual urges that lead to a true orgasm.

   If you ever meet a woman who is interested in explaining how these non-genital orgasm work, please ask her to contact me. I have talked to a few such women and they say it all happens ‘magically’ and without any particular mental focus on eroticism – simply loving emotions. Since they never masturbate they really have no idea what an orgasm feels like.

   Comment by Jane — January 4, 2010 @ 7:03 pm

5. After quite sometime of having uneducated sex (to much of as well in my opinion now) my mother took me to get my first pap smear to test for STDs. By the unbelievable odds, I did not have an std, however many other “problems” arose. Because the significant amount of sex I was having at the time, I was very curious to why I wasn’t able to orgasm. I did not ask my doctor at the time though about my curiosity due to feeling uncomfortable and insecure because of judgmental vibes I felt from her because of my number of sex partners in comparison to my age. Also at that time I was also curious about a “wall” I was feeling inside my vagina while masturbation. The “wall” issue was brought up after the pap smear was finished. Turns out my “wall” issue was a before birth defect of my internal (uterus, cervix, and vagina) not completely forming together. My doctor would have completely missed this issue if I had not brought it up; during the pap smear the speculum was only placed in one side of my two vaginal walls. This created such distraction for the next few months, that my curiosity of my orgasm went unacknowledged while I continued to have non-pleasurable sex. After the dust settle from the “wall issue”, I then found opportunity to ask my doctor (who, note, was my regular doctor and gynecologist) about my lack of having orgasms. Her response was that I had more priority matters to deal with (”the weight issue” discovered shortly after “wall issue”). It really made me feel like my sexual pleasure was not of importance (my weight was of greater importance) and that nothing was necessarily wrong. I felt maybe I was expecting to much out of sex which lead my next few years of sexual experience to focus on men and their pleasure. Even without feeling the love, or even a desire to be with them intimately. In my mind sex was a way for me to be noticed by someone, and had nothing to do with love, desire, or pleasure; most defiantly not my pleasure.

   But that is all to much negativity for me. I’d like to end this on a positive note.

   This series of events did lead to darker things which in return leaves me now with a lot of neglected damage. However the story does get better. I did happen to stumble upon a person whom at the time, I had no idea of the significance their role would play in my life. I met my boyfriend on craiglist personals; his ad was a height, weight, and that he was a smoker and was looking for someone at least tolerant of it. I was desperate for a chance at change (whether negative or positive), so emailed him demanding that there had to be more to a person that an height , weight, and bad habit. We instantly connected, and as I sit here not to terribly long after that bored email I sent late one night, I am changed for the better. He has helped me realize great self confidence. Although he has helped me many more ways than sexually, making me feel “sexy” (very positive word in our vocab) for the first time sincerely, was the first step I needed to push me in a direction of realizing my own sexual needs, desires, abilities. As I have been exploring this site tonight he has been eagerly texting me to hear more and offers the most support possible. As I know this adventure head of me of discovering my own orgasm is a very self directed progress, I still feel appreciative for the support, and offer to help (when necessary) from him.

   I’m ready, I’m ready to orgasm and from that accomplish so much more.
   Thanks WWO its only been more than a few hours since I stumbled upon this site, and I feel hope, happiness, excitement for what is ahead of me.

   -I’m ready

   Comment by im_ready — January 9, 2010 @ 11:19 am

6. Dear I’m ready,

   We can have sex for reproduction or for pleasure. Intercourse is only required if a couple wants a baby. Otherwise, for ‘sex for pleasure’ pretty much anything goes as long as both people are OK with it.

   For a woman to experience orgasm, she needs clitoral stimulation just as a man needs to stimulate his penis. The diffculty for women is that sex does not provide the easiest environment for orgasm. Most women find orgasm via masturbation easier because sexual fantasies are ineffective with a partner.

   That said, it is possible to enjoy a wide variety of physical intimacy with a man including your own sexual arousal. Sex can be much more enjoyable if a woman does not set female orgasm as a goal but more realistically simply enjoys the sensual pleasures of sex.

   The challenge is for a man to be willing to invest effort in pleasuring a woman when his own orgasm is often so easily achieved. See my story ‘Pleasuring a Woman’ under Physical Intimacy.

   Some women are able to use their sexual fantasies during sex and also they ensure that they get the clitoral stimulation they need (either via masturbation during sex or by finding a position for intercourse that provides clitoral stimulation).

   Glad that you have found WWO useful. There’s a lot to take in and my hope is to encourage other women who have found ways of enjoying orgasm with a partner to come forward and be explicit about how they have achieved it.

   Comment by Jane — January 9, 2010 @ 3:57 pm

7. I only read two stories on the site, literotic.com, but I was not impressed. They were stories of men controlling women, one from the woman’s preceptive and one from the man’s. I liked the man’s preceptive better, but they moved along too quickly and before I was 5 short paragraphs down she was having an orgasm, which was discouraging to me since I wasn’t feeling much. Bedtime in my time zone though. If anybody has other sites with more detail and longer tension build up to female orgasm let me know!

   -I’m ready

   Comment by im_ready — January 11, 2010 @ 9:06 am

8. A UK women’s sex magazine Scarlet.co.uk provides a forum for user blogs that include erotic stories you might want to take a look at.

   The US Babeland.com also has good sections offering reviews of adult DVDs and Sex books. Of course, if you go to a good/large sex shop you should find a collection of erotic literature.

   Inevitably, anything that is available for free is likely to be of a lower quality than when you have to pay e.g. books versus on-line. Much on-line erotica is likely to be amateur but then the quality is very variable in any case and so much is down to personal taste.

   Comment by Jane — January 11, 2010 @ 10:42 am

9. Well lets see…i guess an intro is probably a good place to start, im a young MAN and im here to learn more about female sexuality and what i can personally do to help my partner achieve arousal and maybe someday an orgasm. ive read a little of your site Jane and it seems very well informed, a good guide for both women and men alike…i dont have alot else to say right now but ill check back in periodically as time goes on, keep up the good work Jane, and hello to all you others out there.

   Comment by Alive With Illusions — January 25, 2010 @ 7:13 am

10. Welcome to WWO! It’s great to have such enthusiasm. It sounds as if you have a good foundation for sex. Your partner must feel secure about herself and your love for her if she can be honest about her lack of arousal/orgasm (which after all is quite normal for a woman).

    Remember that a man cannot be responsible for his partner’s arousal or orgasm. That’s up to her. I hope you find the stories useful – there are 120 in total. Each one cycles as the theme of the day once every four months. This means that each gets a special focus every few months.

    My ambition is to build a small forum of regular visitors and contributors (50-100 a day currently). Men and women who are committed to sharing ideas on getting more out of sex, always from a woman’s perspective (but with the assumption that a man also gets some fun along the way!).

    I have a zero budget (pretty much) as this is a hobby for me and earns zero revenue (that’s an exact figure!). So marketing is limited to all the free options which takes time and committment. I have both so WWO will one day be what it aims to be now: a focus on the web for informed and considerate discussion of how couples can enjoy their intimate time together.

    Thanks for your comment and please let me know any questions you have.

    Comment by Jane — January 25, 2010 @ 9:22 pm

11. Tip for the day:

    Remember that the key to women’s sexual arousal is getting the mind tuned into the erotic. Even when approaching masturbation alone, I often struggle to get my mind going. Sometimes it can take 10-20 minutes to conjure up an effective fantasy. Of course, it’s much easier after that and I can orgasm sometimes within a couple of minutes if everything is working optimally…

    It feels as if men were given the Ferrari and women are left driving the old jalopy (old banger – wreck of a car)! When approaching sex, unless it’s a purple blue moon (very infrequent) when I am already aroused, I also have to allow time for the mind to get into gear. Watching a porn movie always helps as does reading the best parts of my favourite erotic novels. Otherwise I appreciate my partner providing some sex talk while touching me up (including gentle clitoral stimulation).

    I like to hear about my partner’s arousal, his erection, physical sensations he has and what he’s thinking about – penetrating my body. Sex talk is always a part of our sex routine but always my partner does it for me (I’m not very good at it).

    The real test is could you bring a woman to orgasm simply by talking to her and stimulating her clitoris? My partner did it on a plane once (transatlantic) and the woman got off by hearing about what my partner enjoys about our sex life.

    Comment by Jane — March 20, 2010 @ 9:15 am

12. i do orgasm frequently but i do have to have a bit of foreplay first..porn does help alot and dirty talk during sex is quite arousing… passionate kissing helps me out as well… but i will not settle unless i get mine too meaning he is not done…take a 5 min break and back to work..lol

    Comment by grl71 — March 25, 2010 @ 7:36 pm

13. Thanks for your comment.

    It would be helpful if you could be more specific. Many women never discover orgasm by any means. Do you enjoy orgasm through masturbation alone or with a partner or both?

    The aim of this site is to encourage women to provide details of how they achieve sexual arousal and orgasm. The intention is to share some knowledge and help others with ideas for how they can go about enjoying the same.

    How do you become aroused enough for orgasm? It would also be useful if women could explain the physical stimulation techniques they use during sex to get the clitoral stimulation needed for female orgasm.

    Can you also explain your last 2 phrases (after the kissing part)? I’m not quite with you…

    Comment by Jane — March 25, 2010 @ 8:58 pm

14. Tip for the day.

    We just timed a typical sex session and it was about 15 minutes. My partner (late forties) is now the maestro of self control!

    I lie face down on the bed (on a large soft towel over a plastic sheet) and he uses a combination of baby oil and professional lube to massage first my body and then around my pubic area (clit to anus).

    Very occasionally we use our box of sex toys or some mild bondage (neck ties are useful) but mostly we just have anal sex with man on top from behind.

    We use anal sex because it is the only form of physical stimulation (with simultaneous clitoral stimulation) that causes me to become sexually aroused enough for orgasm with a partner.

    We keep the light levels low and I shut my eyes. Sometimes some sex talk gets me going but other times I find it corny or simply distracting. I can usually clear my head fairly well but it takes a good 5 minutes or so before I start to feel any stirrings of arousal.

    Regardless of whether you prefer anal or vaginal intercourse, one tip is to get your man to maintain one particular thrusting position for a time e.g. 30 seconds to 1 minute and then to change to another position.

    For example, try penetrating only as far as the head or glans of the penis and teasing her from there. Then try deeper penetration and vary the speed of thrusting. Ask your man to use his fingers to stroke and probe around the vaginal opening and around and gently into the anus.

    Note that my partner maintains clitoral stimulation (gentle and over the hood) throughout. At some point, I find that my brain suddenly switches onto being aroused (only after a lot of practice over the years) and I can feel much more keenly the sensations of being aroused.

    Whether you can come or not (anal sex for me is the most consistent way for me to come but doesn’t always work – it isn’t always comfortable or even enjoyable) I find the sensations of being aroused can be very enjoyable by themselves.

    Note to the man: if she is not enjoying something then stop immediately. No use in flogging a dead horse. Move on to something else.

    After I have come or I say to my partner that nothing is going to happen, he goes to wash. I lie on my back and he fucks my cunt which is now nicely tight and swollen. I enjoy his groin banging against my sensitised clit until he comes.

    And my partner still has to talk me into sex…

    Comment by Jane — May 8, 2010 @ 10:46 am

15. The comments that follow this come from e-mails sent in response to this farewell e-mail to an American medical and academic forum on female sexuality:

    I would like to express my disappointment that women’s sexuality today is still being defined almost solely in terms of their reproductive capacity. This is not a new but a centuries-old view of women’s sexuality.
    I had assumed that a modern approach to women’s sexuality would at least involve differentiating between the reproductive aspects of sex and our enjoyment of sexual pleasure. As mature adults I think we all know that vaginal intercourse does not lead to female orgasm. So why the obsession with discussing the vagina? I appreciate that these health concerns are important but are they not the domain of doctors and sexual health specialists?
    How can we change attitudes towards female sexual dysfunction when no one can tell me what this term means. Unlike male orgasm, female orgasm is not required for reproduction so how can a lack of female orgasm be dysfunctional? How can you discuss sexual dysfunction when you have not defined what is sexually normal?
    Kind regards, Jane Thomas

    Comment by Jane — May 10, 2010 @ 11:30 am

16. I would agree with Jane, in that many of the couples that I have seen over the years don’t have enough information about women’s sexuality and what sort of stimulation is necessary for her to orgasm. Often the patterns of sexual arousal are suited to stimulating the woman so that penetration is easy and non painful – but not enough concern about stimulating her to orgasm. OFTEN SHE IS NOT ASSERTIVE ENOUGH AND HER RESPONSE HAS BEEN TO GET IT OVER WITH QUICKLY. Much seems to be rather boring sex!! Marilyn

    Comment by Marilyn P. Safir — May 10, 2010 @ 6:32 pm

17. Marilyn,
    Unfortunately, if women who claim to be the experts are unwilling to be honest about their own sexual experiences then there’s not much hope for anyone else. This takes great courage and I find most people shy away from any open discussion about female sexual arousal.
    Women today, even sex experts, are not able to explain how they reach orgasm with a partner and I have come to doubt whether most know what orgasm is at all. Female sexual arousal is much less obvious than male and so most women never see sex in terms of their own orgasm.
    I have not found any unity among sex educators about the facts that young women should be told about their sexuality. The whole subject is full of opinions, prejudices and ignorance. It’s about time that changed.
    But it never will unless the women with the confidence and education to make a change come forward and admit that women just don’t respond the way that men do. Saying that women have just realised that the brain is involved in sexual arousal is just one example of how backward this area is.
    Men worked out long ago that sexual arousal depends on what happens in their minds. Why does anyone think they are so obsessed with pornography? Women’s sexual arousal is achieved through a much more conscious decision to enjoy the kind of erotic and sexual thoughts that lead to orgasm.
    Not many women of any description ever work this out. So sadly those advising others are not always helping because of their own misunderstandings about how sexual arousal and orgasm are achieved. Even today women insist that romance and love substitute for male pornography.
    Kind regards, Jane

    Comment by Jane — May 10, 2010 @ 7:53 pm

18. I think you misread and misinterpret the significance of the ways that women are being pressed to reconstruct their vaginas to make them “beautiful” and discussions of how we can/should push back from cultural definitions and medicalization of women’s sexuality. And I would beg to differ that orgasm is the defining feature of women’s sexuality; there are those who have very thoughtfully and empirically interrogated how the importance placed on orgasm emerges from a male-centered construction of human sexuality. But the point of the discussion of the many ways that women’s sexuality is still regulated in services other than women’s experiences of self, connection, relationship, their bodies, etc. It is in fact a place to be free from narrow definitions and to engage our work and minds to collaborate and coordinate to enable more inclusive accounts.
    yours, Deb Tolman

    Comment by Deborah Tolman — May 11, 2010 @ 10:35 am

19. Deborah,
    Vaginas, breasts and other aspects of women’s bodies that cause male sexual arousal are part of women’s reproductive capability. Women have cosmetic surgery for just about every part of their bodies. Women’s desirability to men is often confused with their own ability to become sexually aroused.
    BASRT (the British association of sexual and relationship therapists) also question on their website ‘whether orgasm is all that important’. No one ever complains about this so it is very evident that people accept sex without orgasm. We can only be talking about women here though because men would not be very happy with a definition of sex that didn’t involve their orgasm.
    My issue is that every one claims that sex is an identically pleasurable experience for men and women. Yet when I have asked about a lack of female orgasm during sex everyone is dumbfounded. I learned to masturbate at the age of 17 and so I approached sex knowing what orgasm was.
    I have definitely missed having orgasm as part of my sex life. I am trying to highlight the contradictions for women today who are trying to understand why everyone insists that sex is so equal for men and women and yet no one has any solutions for a lack of female orgasm during sex.
    Women who have never masturbated to orgasm no doubt are happy with emotional and sensual pleasures of sex. Women who masturbate are definitely expecting something more from sex.
    It’s about time people advising young people about sex were a lot more honest about the rewards that men and women can hope for from sex. Female sexual arousal is much more difficult to achieve with a partner than anyone ever acknowledges.
    Kind regards, Jane

    Comment by Jane — May 11, 2010 @ 11:01 am

20. From a french male perspective, but also from a critical researcher in sexuality, I noted a profound mistake in Jane’s post about male sexuality.

    There is still a confusion between male orgasm and ejaculation : what is required for reproduction is ejaculation and sperm not orgasm and in many events many males who experience ejaculation do not experience orgasm and they are not even aware of that because they are subjected to male hegemonic representations.

    Kinsey himself made this confusion because ejaculation is “visible” and “accountable” whereas “orgasm” male and female are both almost invisible and difficultly accountable.

    On the other side : there can be male orgasm without ejaculation such as in Tantra and after prostectomy. So orgasm and ejaculation are different physiological processes and social construction. Please do not make a confusion about ejaculation and orgasm…

    About women : I am not sure that vaginal stimulation (penile, manual, lingual, by sex toy) “does not lead to female orgasm”. Evidence seems to state that in some cases it does and others it does not…. and the question is to find in which cases it does not and in which it does. Otherwise, it would be difficult to understand why more than 95% of heterosexuals had penile vaginal intercourse during last event and why women use vaginal vibrators for masturbation and same gender intercourse.
    Best wishes, Alain Giami

    Comment by Alain Giami — May 11, 2010 @ 5:16 pm

21. I would hardly call it a ‘profound mistake’ to say that male orgasm is required for reproduction. I say that male orgasm is USUALLY co-incident with ejaculation. The two are so strongly connected that most people would assume that they always go together.

    I picked up on this point when another male sex expert helpfully pointed it out. However, when I mentioned the issue to my husband he was frankly incredulous that anyone was bothering to differentiate between male orgasm and ejaculation. Perhaps British men experience orgasm differently?

    For most useful purposes the two are synonymous. All this is diffusing the main point which is that female orgasm is not in any way shape or form involved or, should I say, critical to a woman conceiving.

    I’m not sure I follow your point on intercourse. My understanding is that the vagina has relatively few nerve endings but the clitoris has many. I think it is fairly well established that the clitoris is the female sex organ (erectile organ). This is known from female masturbation.

    Again the point is that it is amazing that everyone is still not agreed on this. It is unthinkable that men would not know what their sex organ is and that they need to stimulate it if they ever want to experience orgasm.

    Kind regards, Jane

    Comment by Jane — May 11, 2010 @ 6:00 pm

22. Thanks for your reply…. apparently we disagree… but that’s life ….

    But I would suggest you to ask some gay men (and also straight men who practice receptive anal sex with a woman or a sex toy) and also men who undertook prostectomy how they experience orgasm without ejaculation…

    This is not only a question of witnessing, it’s a social script and also a physiological difference in both processes.

    Orgasm can be experienced by men and women from many parts of the body and not only from the genitals .. and I do not see why the stimulation of the vagina would be the only place that would not facilitate female orgasm ….when it is accompanied by appropriate scripts and fantasies,

    Best wishes from Paris, Alain

    Comment by Alain Giami — May 11, 2010 @ 8:01 pm

23. Alain,

    I’m not really sure what your point is. Are you suggesting that 90% of the internet is devoted to pornography so that men can enjoy ejaculation but not orgasm? Or are you suggesting that most men do not ejaculate when they orgasm? Or what? The point is that usually (99% of the time) when men orgasm they also ejaculate. So what if they don’t always.

    Regardless of whether men orgasm or ejaculate or neither there is definitely something about sex that men like enough to pay considerable sums for. Women don’t appear to have the same motivation so it would appear that whatever that ‘something’ is, women don’t have it or get it as much as men tend to. I’m calling that something ‘orgasm’.
    Kind regards, Jane

    Comment by Jane — May 11, 2010 @ 10:41 pm

24. It’s worth noting that phrases like “aspects of women’s bodies that cause male sexual arousal” and “women’s desirability to men” assumes much, namely heterosexuality.

    In my view, lack of orgasm for some women, if it causes personal and/or couple distress, might be considered problematic for that individual. I believe that to define what is “normal” or “dysfunctional”, in my opinion, is unhelpful since we need to be combating notions of what’s “normal” as much as what is deemed “dysfunctional.”

    I would also question the statement that “female sexual arousal is much less obvious” than a man’s. While it’s true that women aren’t having very noticeable, bulge-in-their-pants erections, clitoral, vaginal, and labial tissue becomes noticeably engorged, lubricated, and frequently darker in color during physical arousal, breasts swell,etc. I wonder if the problem isn’t that women’s arousal is not obvious, but that we aren’t as often TAUGHT what female arousal looks like (the way we learn that erection=arousal in men). Once you know what the changes can be, arousal in women isn’t so enigmatic.

    Liz Aldrich

    Comment by Liz Aldrich — May 12, 2010 @ 9:03 am

25. Liz,

    From the women I have talked to I have come to realise that female masturbation is relatively uncommon. Hence many women never discover what orgasm feels like. Many women mistake orgasm. This makes it very difficult to know whether a woman truly experiences orgasm or simply heightened arousal. Shere Hite called these ‘emotional orgasms’.

    My issue about defining women’s sexuality is that currently female sexual dysfunction is defined in terms of what is normal for men. I don’t believe that most women orgasm during sex. In fact, I don’t believe that many women discover orgasm ever.

    During puberty the male genitals change substantially. Women do not have the same experience of their genitals becoming much larger and more responsive. This explains why many women never discover masturbation to orgasm.

    The other point is that male fantasies are much more basic than women’s tend to be. Men focus on visual images for arousal. Women’s sexual fantasies tend to be much more complex and so women tend to be older before they discover masturbation (if they ever do).

    I am campaigning for a much clearer definition of women’s sexuality in terms of the importance of the relationship aspects of sex as well as understanding the specifics of how female orgasm is achieved. Women use sexual fantasies and clitoral stimulation during masturbation. No one attempts to explain what they substitute for fantasy during sex or how they get the clitoral stimulation needed for orgasm with a partner.

    Most couples either ignore the issue of female sexual arousal or believe that female orgasm occurs ‘naturally’ during intercourse.

    Kind regards, Jane

    Comment by Jane — May 12, 2010 @ 10:29 am

26. Jane you are over generalizing – Sorrel and Sorrell report back in the 80″ most of the college women they interviewed masturbate by their late teens. While in my earlier post I was indirectly referring to problems in communication between partners, I find it hard to accept your conclusions about mistaking orgasm. You demonstrate a lack of respect for women’s intelligence. It sounds as if are talking with women back in the 1950′s.
    Marilyn

    Comment by Marilyn P. Safir — May 12, 2010 @ 11:09 am

27. Marilyn,

    Women haven’t fundamentally changed since the 1950’s and neither has their sexuality.

    I have been told by a woman who learned to masturbate at 28 that she always assumed that she orgasmed during sex before although once she discovered orgasm through masturbation she realised that she never had.

    I am asking women to explain how they orgasm with a partner. I cannot see why anyone would be against that. Shere Hite suggested women use techniques to get the additional clitoral stimulation for orgasm. Others have suggested that some women are not able to use their fantasies during sex.

    I want to ask other women who know what orgasm is (i.e. they masturbate) to tell me what works for them with a partner. Firstly how they get turned on enough for orgasm and secondly how they get the clitoral stimulation for orgasm

    Why should a woman who can orgasm not masturbate? I have found very few women who are not shocked by the concept of clitoral stimulation and female masturbation. Surveys ask the wrong question. Lots of women think that masturbation involves aimless stimulation of the genitals.

    Masturbation (as an adult occupation) involves a person knowing how to become sexually aroused enough for genital stimulation to lead to orgasm.

    Kind regards, Jane

    Comment by Jane — May 12, 2010 @ 11:32 am

28. Jane,

    As someone who researches the vulva, I wanted to quickly clarify:

    In actuality, the labia minora and clitoris both grow during puberty. It just is not discussed as frequently as male genital growth which is included as one of the Tanner’s stages of puberty.

    Best regards, Vanessa

    Comment by Schick, Vanessa — May 12, 2010 @ 2:14 pm

29. I was slightly puzzled by your comment, “Female sexual arousal is much more difficult to achieve with a partner than anyone ever acknowledges”. Where a woman is able to orgasm alone but struggles to do so with a partner, and this is an issue for her, isn’t the answer often for her to know it’s ok to take responsibility for her own arousal by doing what she does alone, with her partner – for e.g. stimulating her own nipples/clitoris during penetration? Perhaps I’ve misunderstood the point you’re making.

    Rose

    Comment by Rose Whiteley — May 12, 2010 @ 3:04 pm

30. Rose,
    I am making the point that orgasm does not arise through physical stimulation of the genitals (penis/clitoris) alone.
    Before a man can orgasm he needs to have an erection. Sexual arousal is a psychological phenomenon. During masturbation, men use porn for arousal. Women use sexual fantasies based on sexual scenarios – often from a book.
    Men’s arousal mechanism transfers fairly naturally from the pictures in a porn magazine to the body of a sexual partner. Women do not have the same advantage. Many women find that their sexual fantasies are not compatible with use during sex.
    This is because during masturbation alone a woman can totally focus on her fantasy in order to achieve the sexual arousal required for orgasm.
    Women are less versatile than men in the ways in which they can orgasm. Any man can probably orgasm via masturbation, either alone or with a partner, oral sex or intercourse. Many women find only one way to orgasm (if they’re lucky) and often that is through masturbation alone.
    The problem for a woman who can only orgasm through masturbation alone is that she finds it difficult to justify her role in sex with a partner that includes only his orgasm. This is about expectations. Women who masturbate hope for orgasm from their sexual relationships.
    Kind regards, Jane

    Comment by Jane — May 12, 2010 @ 5:06 pm

31. Hi Rose,
    An erection in men is helpful for penetration of some kind but not for an orgasm. A man can have an orgasm without a (full) erection.
    Sincerely,
    Esther

    Comment by Esther Israel — May 12, 2010 @ 7:08 pm

32. Intercourse can stimulate the clitoris, internally or externally. It doesn’t always, but it can, and it certainly can lead to orgasm. Differentiating orgasm during intercourse from the contested existence of a “vaginal orgasm” seems pretty basic. If you tell people they don’t orgasm when they do, no one is going to listen to the rest of what you have to say.

    Comment by Miriam Axel-Lute — May 13, 2010 @ 10:56 am

33. Miriam,
    I am questioning whether women actually know that they orgasm especially if they never masturbate. Unless a woman masturbates (regularly for pleasure and to orgasm) she has no idea what orgasm is or how to achieve it.
    It doesn’t make sense that women achieve orgasm without the experience of masturbation that men have. Neither does it make sense that women achieve orgasm without the orgasm techniques that men use.
    Men develop their sexual fantasies to assist with their arousal by enjoying pornography on a regular basis. What do women substitute for this interest in eroticism? Men also need direct penile stimulation for orgasm. It is ludicrous to suggest that women can orgasm with less genital stimulation than men need.
    Women would have to be ten times more sexual than men if they could achieve the same experiences of sexual arousal and orgasm without any of the experience of masturbation, the psychological aids of eroticism or the continuous physical stimulation of the genitals that men need.
    Kind regards, Jane

    Comment by Jane — May 13, 2010 @ 12:17 pm

34. That’s a reasonable question. But that doesn’t translate to intercourse never resulting in orgasm. I just don’t see how “many women have a problem with this” translates into “mature people know this never happens.” I can assure you it does.
    Some women know their bodies, masturbate, enjoy porn, get plenty of gential stimulation, and know how to ask for what they want and works for them—whether it’s intercourse or (and I know this is more often) something else. Ignoring their experience doesn’t help with figuring out how to get more women to share it.
    Miriam

    Comment by Miriam Axel-Lute — May 13, 2010 @ 12:47 pm

35. Miriam,

    I still haven’t met many women who are willing to explain how they orgasm with a partner. Women who do not masturbate are talking about a different experience and this explains why more women do not question a lack of orgasm during sex. Sex does not provide women with the psychological or physical stimulation (in the case of intercourse) to make orgasm possible.

    The big gap in the explanations is how women compensate for the visual turn-ons that men get from sex. There is nothing that comes anywhere close to men’s interest in porn that women do that could substitute. I am very ready to hear how women get aroused enough for orgasm but so far they all say (1) it just happens, (2) it happens ‘naturally’ (3) they get turned on as men do by the body of a partner (but most women don’t buy porn).

    So how do women get turned on enough for orgasm during sex?

    Kind regards,
    Jane

    Comment by Jane — May 13, 2010 @ 1:15 pm

36. Dear Jane, Miriam,

    I follow your email exchange with interest. I too miss discussions about sexual pleasure and am a big proponent of promoting sexual pleasure. In fact, recent talks about women’s sexuality I gave at conferences are entitled: Sexual arousal is not a ‘bonus’ but a necessary requirement for painless and pleasurable sex (and in the talk I explain that this usage of the word sex refers to intercourse). Let’s not make it an either-or issue. Women can have orgasm from intercourse, why deny that, but it’s not always easy, let’s not deny that either. I think the misunderstanding evident in this exchange has to do with a mis-use of words and a misunderstanding of women’s anatomy. What we call ‘the clitoris’ is only the glans of the clitoris. The largest part of the clitoris, the bulbs and crura, are inside, and much much larger than many know. Women have a large sexual organ, just like men, vasocongestion is the main physiological change, just as in men (resulting from the brain processing sexual information). Women need to know that their sexual organ needs to be ‘in place’ as well, just as men need pleasure (resulting in an erection) before they have intercourse, women need pleasure to allow for their sexual organ to become large and swollen, resulting in an ‘airbag’ that protects them from heavy thrusting (nothing derogatory meant by airbag) and allows for more contact and pleasure, and their own, ‘home-made’ sexual lubricant resulting from blood plasma from the capillaries of the vaginal wall lubricating the vaginal wall (another result of the increase in vasocongestion of the genitals). Sexual intercourse can be very sexually stimulating if you are already sexually aroused, or stated differently, if your ‘airbag’ is in place and your vaginal wall is lubricated. Just like in men, pleasure and arousal come first, intercourse comes later. Many women start with intercourse as a means to become sexually stimulated and feel dysfunctional if it doesn’t arouse them. That’s a shame. Jane is right, men do something sexual prior to intercourse too (otherwise they wouldn’t have an erection), women should do the same. If men and women know what their anatomy requires for pleasurable sex, there’s no need to fight about it, it’s nobodies ‘fault’, it’s a difference in anatomy (but note the similarities!!) Men are being protected by their anatomy (men usually do not question the fact that pleasure=arousal=erection is needed prior to intercourse) but women are not (they ‘can’ have intercourse in all circumstances). Of course this latter idea is a serious misunderstanding and a main source of problems for heterosexual people trying to have sex together.

    Kind regards, Ellen

    Comment by E.T.M. Laan — May 13, 2010 @ 3:16 pm

37. I’m picking up some vibes of emotions underlying your words (Jane). I wonder how many of us are upset with the social environment around sexuality. I know I’m not happy with what’s happened – but that is mainly through the institutional, large media channels. I refrain from confusing different individual people’s alliances with corporate media advertising driven polarizing issues. I recall the lesson that all of this means it is time to speak up and get some truth going, get useful discussion going but where does one begin? I think we are living in a time in which the conflicts of views are deadening discussions not enlivening them. What I’ve learned is there is virtually no really dependable sexual information out there because we won’t have what is ‘truth’ until we are sexually free to find out what that is. We just aren’t in the proper environment to produce it yet and right now many people are battling as if we live in a system in which only ONE idea is right and can be ‘the truth’ and be applied to our lives. I’m a creative so I’m sensitive to this. Oh, yes. that’s living in domination to me – when there is only ONE right. It echos of the time when people could only baptize one way. The battles are yet to move to a place in which we can all live free. And I’ll believe we are free when I know that the discussion are no longer necessary and I can believe what i want, say what I want about sexuality and no one will cause me any harm for doing so. I don’t have that freedom. Do you?

    I have my own ideas and opinions about my body and how it works from both my experiences and intense information gathering and honestly, most of it I never ever hear echoed in public spaces – ever – even here. What i hear mostly is the traditional ideas in relatively the same form as I was born into, from people who are living relatively the same way that is accepted and respected in our society… with some mild variation. This saddens me because I lived through the times when ‘old’ ideas were being replaced with an environment for more freedom. I look at it as it was an good attempt and made some progress, but the ways of women being free were barely touched upon, (sigh, yawn, & facial contortions here) and now looking back to my teen years of the 70′s and the so called revolution, I see that it was maledefined then but hey, it was such an improvement over the religion stranglehood of christian sexuality that covered the places I lived before some men gained freedom in media expressions….and , of course, I was ‘going’ along – with ‘both’ – cause there was punishment and hefty negative social consequences if I didn’t and I didn’t like being alone. But I ask who can afford to NOT go along since respectability is so tied with a very narrow defined sexuality in this society. I see the exceptions to this, but they are few.

    My contribution to this discussion is that, I believe, until there is actually sexual freedom in this country we won’t know what our bodies do and don’t do in such a situation. Until we count that sexual defining of women begins at birth and what young girls do at 13 comes from those 13 years as children learning from adults and being confined by adults and laws…and what is okay and not okay to be as a girl, not to mention the violence that we live under…..until this is acknowledged, the ‘freedom’ is a fallacy or a fortune of unique circumstances.

    I’m tired of seeing what I see in public. However, I was told that this list is about the medicalization of sexuality and working against that, not about these larger discussions. So I will take this to Jane’s comment that comes from medicalizing a woman’s vagina as she states…

    “I’m not sure I follow your point on intercourse. My understanding is that the vagina has relatively few nerve endings but the clitoris has many. I think it is fairly well established that the clitoris is the female sex organ (erectile organ). This is known from female masturbation. ”

    My view on this statement is that this is more a popular belief devoid of understandings of how women’s sexuality is tied to women’s history and lack of that historical information comes from male dominated information and the women creating under/in/confined in that domination.

    What is known within maledom can’t be the same as what might exist outside of it. In my research, I uncovered that the beliefs about the vagina that are embedded in the system come from the idea that the vagina is a useless vessel for which a baby comes out and a man’s penis comes in.

    Who else would define a vagina in terms of it’s use for a baby and a man with an omission of it’s uses for something else, but a male dominated profession whether psychiatry, psychology or scientific study. Coming out of sexism isn’t just one idea changed and done…we are embedded in a web of interlocking ideas that originate from patriarchy and I don’t think anyone is ‘beyond learning’ and for me, learning only comes from freedom and freedom, in the last 10 years, has been mightily squelched. Sexual freedom is also tied with economic freedom and I’d make a guess that schedules and clocks run a life course these days that can’t be separated from freedom.

    My experience is that the LGBT groups are sexually freer than women as a group and that any steps to be ‘freer’ than the popular majority are met with at least disrespect, if not hostility, violence and complete rejection. That is my experience. In particular, I have noticed that the underlying current rests on the faithful dichotomy of the ‘good’ women and ‘bad’ women being played out with the latest standards of what is good and bad. It doesn’t matter what adjectives you use in the category of ‘good’ or ‘bad’, the end result is the same. But mainly we live with stereotypes – still – and any stereotype is not a real live woman.

    Comment by karen henninger — May 13, 2010 @ 4:10 pm

38. Dear Karen,

    I’m not sure I understand exactly what you are saying. Are you doubting that the clitoris is the female erectile organ – the only organ that is comparable with the penis?

    Ways Women Orgasm is for women who have been sexually adventurous enough to have discovered masturbation to orgasm. Such women will always question why sex is such a different experience because it is much more difficult for a woman to become aroused with a partner.

    I am providing women with information about how their experiences compare and differ to the male experience. On the whole is it mainly men who are interested in orgasm through genital stimulation.

    I am not trying to convince everyone. If people are happy with what they have then no problem.

    Kind regards,
    Jane

    Comment by Jane — May 13, 2010 @ 5:14 pm

39. Hi Jane

    I think there are many women that need what you are doing. I’m a creative person whose been ‘out of the box’ in many ways for quite a long time, so that lead me to give up lots of fundamentals. My thinking is quite different so I’ll give it a whirl as to try to explain some of it briefly (not sure it can be done via email because it really does undo so much of common views and I’ don’t know what you are thinking) and how I categorize things differently versus ‘traditional’ categories. These ideas do not just involve sexuality. They involve health, the body and how traditional science treats and views the body. My work with the body as creator of image helped me to understand the ‘images’ that dominant body work, sexuality, gender, etc that was systematized as they were taught to us via image and text production through major institutions (some highly respected and heftly paid) – which is the core of my work and expertise.

    We’ve been taught to view the body in parts with priorities and functions a certain way. This view is limited. It’s like driving to Florida and then using those directions to get to California and not realizing that there is more than one place to go and how to get there. It’s a loss of place and finding your way to where you want to go.

    Science has been very limited, traditionally, in its views of how the body works and is constantly learning more despite it’s limited ideas. We were taught we had five senses instead of 90. They only counted the ones they thought important so we perceive it that way.

    In that way, you compare clitoris to penis as ‘standard’ with the physicality of parts deemed important (and some even cut off as not important) such as nerves, etc. In this way, you perceive men’s ability to be arouse quickly as standard of ‘good’. I don’t. I think men’s ability to be aroused, in opposite sex theory, is connected to women’s inability to be aroused and both are in need of change. One is not good and one is not bad. Both have pros and cons depending on the goals. I think what you explain is working for what you are doing. What I am doing is working for what I am doing.

    Male as standard in health is dominant.
    Female then becomes a version of the standard, often seen as inferior – in ways so subtle or common, it isn’t even noticed. I remove ‘this logic’. First by removing male as ‘standard -good, right’, in this case, the penis and it as priority and standard of ‘right sexuality’. I also remove the idea that female is a version of the ‘standard’ and of course, certainly the inferior/smaller/etc mentality. Females are not ‘wrong’ in what they are and what they are doing.

    Why not see what females have as right? Why not see females as ‘bigger’ than males? There’s lots of ways to do this too…but I’m not hung up on size of things. Men as they defined things did see things as important by ‘size’ and systematized this thinking.

    I see the framework of the ‘parts’ as you describe as a narrow view and particular focus… skimming the surface of something much larger that isn’t seen and in moving to the larger – the wholistic body of woman and man beyond traditional views – in this, the analagous comparison of genitals and nerves loses the meaning you describe and that particular structure. You seem to do this too but in a different way. If I understand your thinking, you are saying that we need to move beyond the traditional thinking and think differently so that women can have orgasms. I understand this because I’ve done it myself. But I want to stress that how we think determines what we do with our bodies and I don’t let the idea of where nerves are and are not have anything to do with what I do with my body. My experience shows that there is something much greater and more important than where the ‘nerves’ are. So I think we are in agreement just that issue of naming and information about the body and how we are using that for our goals. My goal is to expand my sexuality and I have been successful. I think you are the same.

    I’m not arguing with some of the facts about the body. I am discussing the interpretations, and omissions around those facts. Another way to look at it is to see what men deemed important and what they overlooked. So what is commonly called clitoris is not but a small part of something much larger ignored, devalued and overlooked. And this is SO pervasive with the body of a woman that to be looking at what is ignored, devalued and overlooked can become a successful habit in moving beyond the traditional.

    Remember the situation in which it was believed that women couldn’t do math and science so there weren’t women that were doing math and science and so they used that ‘proof’ to espouse the belief again, that women can’t do math and science and they are still ignoring all the reasons why women don’t do math and science and trying to prove again that something is biological in why women don’t do math and science.
    Well, It’s the same type of situation for our sexuality. If something doesn’t exist because of the belief system, using the results of that belief system will confirm the belief system and repeat it and continue what is overlooked. You have to go beyond that thinking. It takes an open mind and adventurous spirit and new experience.

    But we all have our own goals, needs and drives. What I am sharing may glove tail or be obstacle to your goals.

    You might want to check out wholistic sexuality and Sheri Winston. Google intimate arts of sexuality. Something like that. Have you heard of her? Here it is. intimateartscenter.com

    I went to one of her workshops and it did more for me than all the sex I ever had. I cried through half of the workshop because what she was explaining put me in a place of awe and wonder about my body. Science, sometimes, does the opposite.

    Sheri describes the female body differently, removing men’s logic and naming parts. SHowing erectile tissue in places ignored but once known, opens up new experiences. She shows the overlooked parts and how our functioning and behaviors between men and women as systematized work in a way that misses what ‘else’ could happen and that is rooted in how the relationships, as we were taught, function to negate women’s bodies. She talks about the ‘clitoris’ as being a larger organ in which the small bud with the nerves is only a small part of something larger that she calls clitoris. Her defining of clitoris expands. The transformattive thinking is to move beyond the framework and either/or of ‘vagina’ and/or ‘clitoris’ as if they are two separate parts – either/or, instead of seeing them as connected and working TOGETHER as part of something larger that dissolves the thinking that dichotomizes clit versus vagina….and this coming together in relationship to the larger organ which is ALL the sexual parts which Sheri calls the ‘clitoris’ and this part conneced to a larger functioning of the person – WOMAN! Her existence arrives. It is the MISSING INFORMATION that is important here.

    I personally don’t use the word vagina at all unless absolutely necessary because of the cultural meanings, disinformation and fragmentation around it but use vulva as it helps to bring forth that the parts are all part of the whole and the whole of the functioning with all parts together which must come from a woman’s brain as an important part. Out goes the dumb blonde bombshell.

    also… You no longer have to choose which body part is the RIGHT one to use to orgasm, unless you want to do it that way and then it really is CHOICE rather than lack of options. Since gaining knowledge from Sheri, the ways I can orgasm have no limits and yes, how I use the parts will cause sensations in many different ways. I haven’t determined ONE way as the right or best but each different and in many combinations. What I do is to have NEW experiences now and I keep having them.

    When I understood the parts working together connected to my brain and mouth and creative thought with my own ideas in charge (my empowerment) I gave up what I had been taught about my body, I began to use my body in different ways. The result is that my orgasms changed dramatically. I believe in multiplicity. I experience multiplicity in multiple ways. Many ways. Many bodies. I am sure that our bodies are different and what one person can do sexually another can’t for a variety of reasons – some of them anatomical structure. I have a book that shows images of the variations of female genitals. There is large variety in the same way we all have a variety of different faces. I’d tell you more about myself but I’m not too comfortable knowing that details of my personal life go through this media channel is such a way that you don’t know who has access to this information and what they do with it. I’m not distrusting you, but the internet and privacy issues.

    My belief is that not only do women have more problems getting aroused because of lack of information about our bodies, but also because of the lack and design of the whole process that begins with dating and meeting a person – the opposite sex theories and gender – is designed for men to have their sexual power and women to not have their sexual power – unless they use that power in a way that serves men and goes along with the patriarchy. When real change occurrs, attacks are common unless you are in a safe place sexually. I believe that women’s history, women’s work lives, women’s relations with men regarding rape, physical assault and emotional/information/mental dynamics between gender are the issues that work against women’s ability to feel safe and free enough sexually. I’ve read a quote that women can not be sexually free until they are economically free. There has been some truth to this for me at times.

    Hope this helps explain some of what I think, but more importantly…I hope that you use this information I shared in a way that works with you. It sounds like you’ve done alot of work already. I wish you well.

    karen

    Comment by karen henninger — May 13, 2010 @ 6:17 pm

40. Ellen/Karen,

    I appreciate all the points about the full extent of the clitoris. BUT no one explains how the average woman achieves the sexual arousal required to have an erection of the clitoris. In fact most women appear to be unaware that the clitoris is required for orgasm.

    This is why I am proposing that women’s sexual arousal is not as immediately obvious or as easy to achieve as men’s tends to be. The fact that experts and professionals, many of them women, cannot agree even on the basic fact of whether or not the clitoris is required for female orgasm shows the level of misunderstanding and disarray in this area.

    I have paid significant sums of money to be told that I am completely sexually normal, that is there is nothing either physically, psychologically or emotionally abnormal about me or my reactions. No one has any answers for why I have never experienced the sexual arousal during sex that I can achieve with sexual fantasy through masturbation.

    No one can explain why a perfectly normal woman doesn’t orgasm during sex. I have come up with my own explanation but no one comments on that explanation even though they don’t have a solution of their own. It is also not right to tell a woman that she is dysfunctional for not having an orgasm when it is quite clear that most women never know what it is.

    I find very few women are even interested in discussing orgasm or how it is achieved. It’s all bravado. I am a mature woman asking for explanations and I have been patronised, ignored and told that I am the only woman who ever had this experience. This is not true.

    I have put forward my own sexual experiences and responses for others to gain some reassurance from. I am also hoping that some other women will be confident enough to explain their own in enough detail for someone else to make sense of them. Very few women are interested in comparing notes in any detail.

    So far, women tell me either that female orgasm is unimportant, or that it just happens naturally or they refuse to say anything at all. Orgasm is unimportant to women who never masturbate because they never learn what it is. If all women masturbated then they would all wonder why sex of any description tends to be non-orgasmic for women.

    I have found that women often mistake orgasm in the case where they don’t masturbate. So I am asking women who masturbate regularly to orgasm for pleasure (not just aimless stroking of the genital area in childhood) to tell me how they have used their orgasm techniques from masturbation and applied them to sex with a partner.

    Shere Hite suggested that women either masturbate themselves during sex or they find a position for intercourse that maximises the indirect clitoral stimulation. I am asking women to confirm what they find works – so far very few women have any answers because they don’t even understand that the clitoris is involved in orgasm.

    I am comparing female sexuality with male because of the fact that men need and indeed insist on direct penile stimulation for orgasm, makes me question how women can orgasm with so much less genital stimulation.

    Why would someone prefer less genital stimulation to reach orgasm? Men would never settle for a partner banging against their groin so why do women? I have attempted to answer all these questions on my website through the stories sections.

    Kind regards,
    Jane

    Comment by Jane — May 13, 2010 @ 7:52 pm

41. Jane

    thanks for explaining all that. I understand where you are coming from much better now. I can understand your points clearly. Much of what you say resonates with my own experiences with some experiences not exactly the same.

    What is it you seek from ME in this discussion?

    I have found my answers for myself and I also know the steps I want to take to have new experiences. Maybe not all of the answers to what you are questioning because some of what you are questioning I have learned, for myself, are the wrong questions. This may not be for you. I do not know what you need.

    I do share in the experiences that few women are comfortable talking about sexuality at all. I attempted to have some sexuality workshops in my area and some women responded as if it was an insult to their competence if you suggested there was something to learn or talk about. I have resolved that there are some people interested and some not. I found groups like HAI, TBS, Body Electric, SHalom Mountain events, and other personal growth places are people (both women and men) that are open to learning and exploring. I did quite a number of sexual embodiment, sexual healing, sexual-body honoring type events. Are you aware of this type of thing?

    Have you ever heard of Sheri Winston? You didn’t reply to that and I’ll have to assume you did not or if you did, you had a different experience but frankly, I don’t know anyone who didn’t walk away absolutely thrilled – men included. Sheri Winston has over 20 years as midwife and nurse working with women’s bodies. From her experiences, she is all about workshops with women. I know that she is also doing workshops all the time, so she must be connected socially in a way that is working to discuss these matters and have workshops. But this may not be for you for reasons I do not know since I do not know you.

    Have you ever read the Making of Sex by Thomas Laqueur? I found the historical knowledge in the book of how we got here to be very helpful in understanding what is going on and why. This ties in with my women studies education…that involved other elements that all relate to women’s ‘sexuality’.

    I have gained very much by studies of the foremothers. Some of the quotes keep me going on and are very helpful. Emma Goldman, I believe, said that (my paraphrasing) that what women want in this world they have to create. It has to come through them. I found this works for me knowing this. Once I really claim something, own it for myself and act on it, I create it and it no longer matters that I’m not getting ‘it’ from others; whatever ‘it’ is. Of course, it is nice when you have community and your needs met, and that comes after.

    I am glad to have someone to talk about these concerns. I’m just not sure that what you need is what I have to give. If you would like to continue discussion, just let me know.

    karen

    Comment by karen henninger — May 13, 2010 @ 9:56 pm

42. Dear Karen,

    Sure. My coverage of the subject is very detailed so I hope it’s clear. I haven’t read the people you refer to. However, I think I am looking for a much more specific and detailed explanation of women’s sexual experiences in relation to orgasm through masturbation in particular.

    Women’s dislike of eroticism, pornography etc. is a good indication that most women do not masturbate or fantasise. Otherwise they would be more understanding of men’s enjoyment of masturbation. Most women appear to be unaware that younger men masturbate daily. Men also apologise for sexual remarks made in front of women which also indicates that women are easily shocked by sexual references.

    If every woman masturbated and knew how to achieve true sexual arousal through an appreciation of eroticism, then the censorship of nudity we currently have would not exist. Porn magazines are sold in plastic covers so that adult women are not offended by the contents.

    Women cannot possibly orgasm without understanding that sexual arousal arises when the mind tunes into erotic or sexual thoughts. This is why men buy so much porn because they enjoy their own sexual arousal through masturbation. Some women also do the same with the use of sexual fantasies.

    It is these women who I am trying to reassure. No one has ever been able to explain to me why true sexual arousal is so much more elusive during sex than during masturbation alone. I have been able to piece together a possible explanation and I am asking other women to confirm or contrast their own experiences with mine. However, a woman really needs to know about orgasm from masturbation to be able to comment.

    Unfortunately at the moment any woman can advise others about orgasm even when she does not know how to masturbate to orgasm. This is wrong because you cannot advise someone who has more sexual experience than you have yourself.

    Very few women confirm that they do masturbate. Most I speak to are highly defensive of intercourse even though this is a ‘love-making’ act that facilitates male orgasm but does not provide sufficient clitoral stimulation for female orgasm.

    Kind regards,
    Jane

    Comment by Jane — May 14, 2010 @ 3:36 pm

43. Jane,

    I want you to know I feel unheard, so let me try to be clearer. The answers you are seeking are available. There is misinformation and missing information.
    Some of your ideas may have some truth somewhere in your experience, but they may end up being a block for you. I can’t make conclusions about you because I only know a few paragraphs of what you said. There is a lack of information about women’s lives, their work lives, their history, their sexuality. It is the result of men’s domination of women and women’s inability to move out of that domination.

    I will suggest to you to talk to Sheri Winston. I can’t do justice to the subject the way she can. What you are asking she is Teaching many people. Here’s the bare bones of it. The relationships between men and women are the result of teachings of the Fathers who made themselves authorities in all social positions of power up until recently. The result is a lack of information about women’s bodies. Sheri Winston says there is less information about women’s bodies in 1970′s than in the early 1900′s. There is much to know about information and women’s history. Most of what is believed is MYTH. I do not know if most women do not orgasm but most women don’t talk about it. I did hear that on Oprah once. I have not had that problem. I have heard it mentioned often and I had the experience of painful intercourse when I was young. In fact, it was believed that it was normal. I learned that this is because the ‘practice’ of intercourse as we learned totally negates the reality of women’s bodies and if it is painful, it is because a woman is not using her body as nature intended. Once you get the proper information, you can take the steps to honor your body and in this way, have a proper ‘hard on’ with erectile tissue engaged, it requires moving the muscles and bones in the pelvic area, first, so the blood gets down there. Women don’t feel anything because they never do the right thing to get the blood down there which is what makes the erectile tissue swell and have sensations. There are many other places for stroking besides the bud clit. The only reason this is difficult for women isn’t because something is WRONG with them. It is the result of male domination and having mothers who were not allowed to be ‘sexual’ at all, in some cases. Even now to be a sexually active woman, especially not in mongamous marriage, can ruin your life, your job, etc. The goal isn’t just to have ‘sex’. and orgasm…women have done that with many wrong choices. The goal is to be sexually empowered AND Respected. If you put together the fact that marital rape was legal until 1994, and other facts, you come to see the condition as it is. The lie is that there is no sexism. Women aren’t dominated and we are free to do what we want. I’ve learned to not listen to what people say as much as I watch what is being done. I have also learned to find the right women to read and listen to based on where their loyalties lie and what motivates what they are saying.

    I feel fortunate that the mothers did the work they did so that we, as women, have gotten this far…..but there is lots to do yet. I surely hope this helps. There is much to learn and the information isn’t that far away. I have a file with the handouts from the workshops I was at, that explains this. I have years of women studies education that fills in lots of information that pertains to ‘women’s sexuality’. It is important that you question everything you been taught if you want to learn the reality about women’s lives and women’s bodies. I’ve taught a seminar series titled Women’s History, Women’s Realities and You. I’ve taught the history of marriage in workshop form at a conference. I’ve done a show titled Stories of My mothers. I’m just trying to say that all this information helps in understanding women’s lives, women’s bodies and women’s realities. We’ve been LIED to by the fathers who claimed to be authority. Men made themselves authority over everything but they have no experience. You can not be authority on something you know nothing about, but that is what we inherited. We have a systemof people who are authorities that are not qualifed, but of the systematic results of the male domination.

    Is this understandable? It’s late, but I just read your anguish again and felt compelled to respond. Seriously, Karen Henninger

    Comment by karen henninger — May 14, 2010 @ 8:19 pm

44. Karen,

    You need not be concerned. I am certainly not suffering any anguish over this.

    My aims are very simple:

    (1) To ask women how they achieve the PSYCHOLOGICAL sexual arousal required for orgasm. Men’s sexual arousal is very evident and the source of it is clear. Men enjoy the sexual attributes of women through pornography. What do women enjoy that substitutes for this obsession with porn?

    It is embarrassing that in 2010 women are still not able to say what causes their own sexual arousal. Boys know what turns them on from a young age (pre-teens). It is clear that women use sexual fantasy during masturbation alone and there is evidence that some women use fantasy with a partner.

    If a woman does not use fantasy for sexual arousal then what does she use? Women claim to be embarrassed about admitting these details but why? What is so embarrassing for every single woman even the sex professionals? I suspect most women haven’t a clue.

    (2) To ask women how they obtain the PHYSICAL stimulation of the clitoris for orgasm. Most women appear to be unaware that the clitoris is even involved in female orgasm. Since the role of the clitoris was established decades ago it is REALLY embarrassing that women cannot agree on this.

    Women like yourself keep blaming men for dominating women as if women have no free will of their own. Men would be ecstatic if women took more interest in enjoying their sexuality both through masturbation and through exploring sex (outside intercourse) with a partner.

    It is women’s positive dislike of eroticism and anything connected with the genitals that leads to all the restrictions over ‘adult’ material that we have in our society. Men are actively seeking it out on a daily basis so they’re definitely not the ones trying to put women off sex in any way.

    I’m afraid I find the involved discussion of tangential issues and historical limitations on women simply misses the point. Women today have no reason to be so secretive about how their sexual arousal works and how they enjoy orgasm with a partner. Why all the defensiveness and silence?

    I am asking women to unite and clarify key issues (tell younger women how to achieve sexual arousal and orgasm both alone and with a partner). Instead of support and enthusiasm I meet with silence, obstructive argument and defensiveness. If women are content with what they have then fine. I am representing women who have found that sex is not all it is hyped up to be by those who don’t understand the first thing about true female orgasm.

    Kind regards, Jane

    Comment by Jane — May 15, 2010 @ 5:02 pm

45. Hi – brief (ha ha) answers below….I care about this topic, too.

    … from the way you speak of it. t does not sound like you are at peace about it. Not that you should be…just that sometimes solutions rest with self awareness.

    That’s fine what you are doing. I will repeat and just add that the idea of understanding women and being critical of them AS IF THEY HAVE A CHOICE when there is no sexual freedom is to not look at the context. This is a repeated problem.

    I cringe that your statement blanketly insinuates that women as a whole should be embarassed about their progress. It speaks to me of misunderstandings of what happens when women, or anyone, gets out of line in this society. The consequence is jail, being labeled mentally, being socially outcast…..those are the real consequences for women if they don’t ‘go’ along. Knowing this doesn’t stop me, it just means I have choice and I pick and chose what is effective behavior given the environment. The context of this is domestic violence and rape and many people are totally out of touch with that issue and their relationship to it. It isn’t just women that have to change. In fact, women can change, but if the social structure remains the same, women’s work and change is futile.

    This IS a women’s history lesson. We don’t know the work and struggles of women and what work they’ve done. Each generation we have to reinvent the wheel. That is why it is misunderstood that in some ways we did not get the rewards of the work of women in the 1970′s. It was taken and used for male power.

    You have an idealic, mythological idea about men and sexuality – which is what they tell you and perpetuate. Boys are clones with their sexuality, forced into ways of being that, in many cases, they don’t have a choice. There is NOT sexual freedom for pre-teens and young teens. That should be obvious. What boys do is indirectly forced on them. I have spoken to men who speak truth and I have had 2 sons and watched how they dealt with the ….you got to be a man and tough and be like us, or you are a sissy, girl and pussy and we will beat you up.
    Our society is only beginning to deal with this intraviolence in our culture and choices about gender which absolutely boxes a person’s sexuality.

    Have you been introduced to the fact that have sexual fantasies (while not condemning them blanketly) are a way to NOT have a real sexual relationship with your own body and someone elses. Fantasies have long been a way to ‘escape’ the reality of our sexuality and the conditions of our bodies. For some men, it is the only way they can relate to women, in fantasy. I’ve had some experience beyond this and I know what it is and I want more of the body connected, mind connected, emotionally connected sex because it is the ONLY way an actual ‘relation-ship’ exists. The sexuality that is present in our society is disconnected and not wholistic. The lives of men and their sexuality is very problematic in many ways.

    We are all sons and daughters of the father and patriarchy. We all have been taught vast distortions about ourselves, our bodies and our connection to the environment. For women, we are taught we are wrong because we are women – period. Because we are women we are shamed and embarrassed.

    ….that is why it is absolutely wonderful what you are doing and saying!!! Questioning is the way to find your way.

    I think for the most part sex professionals are so entrenched in the matrix that they, in some cases, are the last to have a shred of something authentic. On the other hand, the progress is we have them. It’s OK to study SEX. There has been progress.

    For me, it is moving AWAY from the teachings about the clit so that I can wholistically bring my whole body to be part of the sexual experience of my ‘clit’. It is ME, the whole body that was left out of social consciousness and placed with fantasy that really doesn’t include ME. I have rectified that for myself to a degree….but I see so much more potential.

    Women have not only been given inaccurate information about themselves and their bodies, they have been given information that counters and prevents them from finding the truth about themselves. Are you saying that YOU are embarrassed. I’m not because I know the hard work I’ve done to be sexually free and I know that I’ve been fortunate….in a few particular ways. I also cringe at your idea about the ‘role’of the clit being established (IN patriarchy publicly). This facade is part of the game played on women.

    It sounds like you might have some unresolved feelings and/ or some hatred toward women ???? I believe that I have a balanced view of both men and women as children of patriarchy , but that can’t help but counting women’s lives

    I do not participate in BLAME for anyone. It’s a waste of time and I have too much I want to do. I am simply stating facts about women’s lives \. Blame is inaction. But I can’t take the right actions if I deny and ignore the reality or the issues in the relationship with men. To speak about our relationships is necessary and it is not BLAME. Be sure you know the difference, because there IS alot of BLAMING going on and a lot of INACTION and I agree that some women do.

    I found that the only sex I can have with men is the sex THEY want. Most men don’t want to even talk about it. I believe there are special men and places where this is not true.

    Have you tried showing more interest in a normal public setting? I have. My experience is that men have a power and control issue and will not participate if I show interest directly and strongly and/or not the way they want. There are lots of opportunites to have sex with men at any time of the day or night, but this is only the sex that men want as they are allowed to create. Are you aware of the human trafficking that is going on to satisfy men’s sexual needs s they want? Are you aware that men can buy sex…and when asked why they buy sex…it’s because they don’t have to DEAL with a woman. Have you been, like I have, the recipient of selfish men who really don’t have an interest in relating to a woman? It’s my choice now to have sex as I want….I didn’t have that choice when I was younger because I was taught to be a ‘girl’.

    I long ago gave up pleasing men and there are consequences, pros and cons… for it either way. I also remain confident that this is a general statement and miracles do happen otherwise. But when something is taught systematically it is there everywhere, you have to get someone’s permission and someone else who is willing to change too. Most men think there is nothing wrong with them to change. That’s what I’ve experienced.
    It sounds like your experience is different. I’m wondering now about your experiences with men and how much you are molded as ‘girl’ to fit the patriarchy and what your motivations are for this discussion and your website?

    Have you ever heard of Jerry Falwell? Billy Graham? Have you ever heard of the christian religion that dominates our culture and has such a strong hold on our sexuality even when people never enter a church their whole life? Are you aware of GWBush our t president who took down and closed the women’s dept of labor from the 1920′s, let alone consider sexual freedom for women and pushed for no sex education……and you know who that is aimed at?????? Do you know whose information has been denied? I’m a woman artist, writer and creator. I know the organic history I inherited that brought me to this life and the history of my own life that brought me to this day. Christian men tied with the military have the power and if it were women controlling this….how do you explain sex trafficking and sex tourism as businesses? Women’s fault too?

    It might help you to consciously know that woman blame is epidemic in our society.
    And you might be project your own mentality onto others. I’m not, nor is anyone, a projection screen for your mentality. Getting out of your own limitations mentally is the only way to see others as they are beyond your own thinking about them. It sounds like you have some of the teachings of the fathers to question in yourself….but that’s not picking on you and I hope it doesn’t come across like that. It’s just that I believe this work involves massive self evaluation….and self change. It’s the only way to get results.

    Things are more complicated and what appears as reality may not be. I am aware of this dynamic on the surface, but I believe the relationships between men and women are really nothing what we think they are because we’ve been given wrong information about it all.

    Your belief feeds your belief. I don’t need to know about the history of women because I don’t know abou t the history of women and it is irrelevant. Women have no environmental context to their lives. They floated in from Mars and are free to do what they want ???? Like I said, there are laws, social mores, jail and disability. You might think about talking to women that are in jail and on disability or the ones that are living in vans. The ones that have truly not gone along with ‘tradition’. You can talk to those who are cozy and happy in society as it is ……the ones that aren’t attempting to change anything and don’t wnat to because ……if they tried, they might run into what I’m talking about.
    You lose your job, your home, you are attacked. These are the consequences of stirring the pot…..UNLESS you have some safe people who are also open and willing to change with you. And it sounds like you aren’t finding that…for the reasons I’ve already stated.

    In other words, the facts of women’s lives do not matter in understanding women you claim?

    It sounds like you are ignoring, not believing or disagreeing with what I am telling you and you are looking for other answers. I already gave you my answers to this in the first emails. No point in continuing to repeat myself if you are not interested. do not agree. I really wish you to find the answers you are looking for….not my answers. It’s just that I don’t think I have them because I think we covered that ground already.

    I believe that people have power to behave as they want…and they do so depending on the environment. In other words, if I get up in the morning and I go to take a shower and there is no shower in my house, I can’t take one. How our society operates is to blame the person for what is going on systematically while denying what is there and not there. then you are told you are free and what is wrong with you? Parents blame children. Children blame parents…women blame men…and men blame women. We are all in something that has yet to be described accurately and no one is at fault. The guys at fault are the ones that created the system and they are dead long ago. But we inherited it and it is up to us to change what we inherited but if you don’t count what we inherited you can’t change it.

    I think you are still trying to grasp the obstacles you face in getting other women to do what you want. I’ve gotten NO ONE to do what I WANT. It seems that people do what they want based on what they want not what I want.

    I applaud your work even if I will not clone my thoughts to match yours. I am a freethinker and it sounds like you are one too!

    have a good day,
    karen

    Comment by karen henninger [karendee57@hotmail.com] — May 15, 2010 @ 7:12 pm

46. Karen,

    I agree that we do not see entirely eye-to-eye on this. I find your discussion is loaded with political claims and resentments. I am simply trying to find explanations that fit the observations of women in society today. I am not particularly into blaming anyone nor do I have any political goal.

    Sheri Winston must be making a packet out of women’s insecurities over their sexuality. I don’t see how natural this view of women’s bodies can be if they have to go on a course (no doubt an expensive one) to have a chance of discovering it. It doesn’t sound very natural to me.

    If you put a load of men in a room then they could probably get aroused if you gave them enough porn to look at. Young boys do sometimes masturbate together behind the shed or wherever. I have never heard of women doing this. In fact, my understanding is that one of the reasons women can orgasm alone but not with a partner is because of the intense mental focus on sexual fantasy that is required for orgasm through masturbation.

    Sexual arousal is fundamentally about what is happening in the brain. So physical stimulation techniques of any description are sadly just barking up the wrong tree. If a man has difficulty with arousal you just give him some porn or do a belly dance in from of him.

    It’s not so easy for women even if they know how to become aroused during masturbation. Most women I meet never admit to masturbation whether they do masturbate or not I don’t know but I doubt it. They are too easily shocked by the eroticism that leads to sexual arousal.

    Sexual arousal occurs when the mind tunes into psychological stimuli of an erotic or sexual nature. Sexual arousal, once achieved, results in physical phenomena such as increased blood-flow to the erectile organ.

    I have only experienced full clitoral erections over the age of 35. Sometimes these happen subconsciously and other times in response to my mind focusing on some sexual thought. I have never met another women who has been willing to admit that she also experiences erections.

    The full extent of clitoral erections seems to be more the domain of academic theory and research laboratories than women’s real-life sexual experiences. So my question is: what do experts suggest causes the kind of sexual arousal that leads to a clitoral erection?

    In any event, whether I have a full erection or not, it makes sex with a partner more arousing but does not change the experience of orgasm significantly. Also during masturbation when I use fantasy and have the best kind of orgasms, I do not seem to get a full erection anyway.

    So I wonder whether clitoral erections have the same significance for women that they have for men. I was hoping that ‘NewView’ would be the kind of forum where such deep questions could be contemplated but never mind. I will return to the general public via my forum.

    Thanks for your encouraging remarks and all the best for your efforts in this area.

    Kind regards,
    Jane

    Comment by Jane — May 15, 2010 @ 9:13 pm

47. Dear Jane

    I think we agree on most points. And now that you have shared your personal experience with me (thank you) I understand better where you are coming from. I too see women who do not orgasm, downplay the importance of it (we psychologists call that cognitive dissonance), think they have it but in fact don’t. But many many women that we do not see in our offices do orgasm, alone, with partner, with intercourse, without intercourse. Of course all of us also use our own experiences to inform what we tell our clients, how can we not, but there’s also a danger to it. My personal experience, for instance, is that it is very possible to orgasm with a partner during intercourse or otherwise and I believe that many women don’t because they start intercourse too early. I am not suggesting (as most of my clients think!) that experiencing orgasm during intercourse is the goal to strive for, I’m merely saying that it is possible and perhaps not that rare. Perhaps culture has something to do with it: orgasm problems are more prevalent in the US than in the Netherlands.

    With respect to your last point, in my own words: why do women tolerate intercourse when it doesn’t bring them anything, has intrigued me as well. I treat many women with dyspareunia, the most frequent cause being repeated inaroused intercourse. Recently we finished a study in women with dyspareunia (I am a scientist as well as a clinician) asking the question: why do women continue with behaviour that predictably leads to pain? We looked at only a few factors: sexual autonomy, a few factors of the YSEX questionnaire of Cindy Meston and Dave Buss (pleasure motives, mate guarding motives, duty motives), and behavior of the partner in response to the pain. We compared responses of women with dyspareunia, women with primary vaginismus, and controls. As predicted, women with dyspareunia are less sexually autonomous, have sex for mate guarding and duty motives rather than pleasure, have partners that respond in negative ways to their pain (according to the partners themselves, by the way!). All this probably contributes to women with dyspareunia exhibiting what we call persistent ‘inadequate pain behavior’. Hopefully we’ll have a publication ready soon.

    Kind regards,
    Ellen

    Comment by E.T.M. Laan — May 16, 2010 @ 11:41 am

48. Dear Ellen,

    It is so refreshing to find someone who is not defensive and provides some specifics! I think I am better off finding people who can do this than opening up a public debate where (even among professionals) I find the discussions get diffused with tangential issues or people picking on certain words or phrases rather than the overall intent of the discussion.

    I would very much like to ask you some questions that mostly never get answered by anyone I’ve met so far. Please accept my good intentions here and that I am not expecting you to have the answers because no one ever does. I will provide the answers I have come up with. My point is that someone needs to start providing women like myself with answers rather than ignoring them.

    1. Many women experts tell me that orgasm is possible through intercourse but they never provide specifics. Most say it just happens.

    Most women tell me that they see no point to masturbation because they are expecting some emotional content to any sexual act. I find it amazing that women do not appreciate that a person has to know how to achieve sexual arousal before orgasm is possible. Men’s sexual arousal arises from the subconscious to the conscious mind much more readily.

    Women who masturbate have to focus intensely on sexual fantasy in order to orgasm. How do women who orgasm through intercourse achieve the sexual arousal required for orgasm? No one ever has an answer for this except to imply that women get aroused as men do. But women don’t buy porn so that can’t be the answer.

    2. I’m glad you’re not but many women experts are highly defensive of orgasm through intercourse. Even today there is an implication that orgasm through intercourse is the ‘real thing’. As Shere Hite pointed out intercourse only provides indirect clitoral stimulation. Why would anyone deliberately opt for less genital stimulation?

    Most women are shocked even by the concept of genital stimulation. They clearly do not masturbate or seek clitoral stimulation with a partner. So inevitably they are talking about a different kind of orgasm experience that involves loving feelings for their partner. Women who masturbate are hoping for the kind of orgasm that comes from genital stimulation.

    3. Men’s regular use of pornography is very apparent. What do women use for sexual arousal to help them with orgasm either alone or during sex? If men need and enjoy stimulating their sexual fantasies and their psychological sexual arousal through regular use of porn and masturbation, why don’t women? How can women’s experiences compare to men’s when they don’t enjoy the eroticism that leads to sexual arousal?

    Women assume that the emotional and sensual pleasures of sex are all that is involved in what other people (men and women who masturbate) are referring to as sexual arousal and orgasm.

    4. Hite suggested that women masturbate themselves during sex or find a suitable position for intercourse to maximise the indirect clitoral stimulation. I rarely come across women who are this advanced in their appreciation of what it takes to achieve orgasm. Most men and women assume that female orgasm happens naturally without a woman doing anything at all.

    Most couples accept sex as intercourse and never even realise that female orgasm could be an objective. Women assume that it happens or simply aren’t interested in orgasm. No one who knows how to achieve orgasm through genital stimulation would accept a partner thumping against their groin. Men wouldn’t and indeed don’t like wearing condoms because of the reduced stimulation.

    5. I am specifically trying to help women who are familiar with orgasm from masturbation. The advice that is available is frankly appalling and wrong. Women are not even told that clitoral stimulation is required for orgasm. This highlights the fact that even women professionals have no experience of orgasm through genital stimulation.

    The reason we still have debate over whether the clitoris is key to female orgasm is because most women do not know how orgasm is achieved. It is unthinkable that a man would not know that he needs to stimulate his penis in order to orgasm. Likewise a man knows that he needs to focus on erotic or sexual thoughts (if he’s not automatically doing so!) in order to get aroused.

    Sorry I have a million such questions. All are covered on the website which aims to highlight these issues and get women talking. So far despite having over 100 visitors a day I get a lot of silence. I really think the world is just not as sophisticated as we would like to think it is! I get very little abuse and quite a lot of fan mail so I must be getting something right.

    Kind regards,
    Jane

    Comment by Jane — May 16, 2010 @ 3:43 pm

49. Dear Jane,
    That’s a long list of questions and remarks that I don’t have time for this weekend. I have a chapter I need to finish by tomorrow evening (about orgasm, as it happens). I do want to let you know that I will not leave you in silence again; I will send a detailed reply later this week. I am asthonished by some of your questions and assumptions though. It is my experience that most Dutch women know very well how to reach orgasm with a partner, ‘through intercourse’, namely through stimulation of the clitoris. Of course. The thing I tried to say earlier is that when sexually aroused, the clitoris is so large that it is very hard to think of any kind of sexual stimulation that does not involve the clitoris. If the clitoris is really engorged with blood and thus very large, orgasm through intercourse is possible. That is why I wrote that timing of intercourse is important, but of course some positions are better than others, too, such as woman on top. Orgasm certainly doesn’t ‘just happen’ with the woman remaining passive.
    More later.
    Kind regards,
    Ellen

    Comment by E.T.M. Laan — May 16, 2010 @ 8:00 pm

50. Marilyn,

    Thanks for your interest in this subject.

    I have come to realise that relatively few women masturbate to orgasm. The problem is that surveys only ask ‘Have you ever masturbated or do you masturbate?’

    Many women assume that any touching of the genitals during puberty equates to masturbation. I am talking about an adult activity that involves a person regularly enjoying sexual arousal and orgasm. Very few women learn to do this.

    The reason I know this is that most women dislike the eroticism that leads to sexual arousal. This is why ‘adult’ material and any nudity depicting the genitals is restricted or censored in our society. It certainly isn’t men who want it restricted.

    I am suggesting that vaginal intercourse is only good for two things: (1) having babies and (2) facilitating male orgasm. Women go along with intercourse because it’s the easiest way for a woman to assist with male orgasm without needing to be under pressure to aim for her own. Women are less supportive of oral sex or masturbation because (1) they never learn the pleasures of orgasm through genital stimulation and (2) they positively dislike engaging on anyone’s genitals even their own.

    Kind regards,
    Jane

    Comment by Jane — May 18, 2010 @ 12:42 pm

51. Jane, I turned 72 in march and became sexually active in the 60′s. I began masturbating around the time I was 4 and can remember having very vivid fantasy during masturbation. When I began dating and had a serious relationship (staying a virgin was a requirement) my boyfriends used their hands a mouths to bring me to orgasm. I then married for short while to a guy who had sexual problems and intercourse was very unfulfilled. – when we ended the relationship – I went thru an adolescent sexuality. At that point we didn’t know much about women’s sexuality but eventually worked it out that I would have an orgasm and become stimulated almost to the point of an other orgasm and then have intercourse – If I didn’t orgasm then during orgasm than after he had an orgasm I would demand an other. What you said about having orgasm thru intercourse was true unless my partner continued to stimulate me ( or I did my self). When it became clear that the clitoris was our main sex organ, This became an element in any sex therapy that I happened to do. I the research that I did I found that couples who had good communication skills had no problem developing satisfying sexual relationships for both of the. In fact the early studies I did it was clear that much of the difficulty people where having was because of lack of or incorrect knowledge about female sexuality and therapy often consisted of 4 sessions that were primarily educational. There is some much written in women’s magazines today than I can’t beleive that the situation is as bad as you are writing – unless this is specific to GB. I used to Use Barbach’s books for your self and Heiman & Lopicollo Becoming Orgasmic with a great video ( the first one) All that knowledge was avaiable – Has there been a regression? Marilyn

    Comment by Marilyn P. Safir — May 18, 2010 @ 4:43 pm

52. Thanks Marilyn.

    I have to use an intense mental focus on sexual fantasy to orgasm during masturbation. This is why I cannot orgasm in the same way with a partner.

    Did you continue to masturbate as an adult? How do you think your sexual arousal works? I mean men seem to need a regular dose of porn. What have you done to keep your mind tuned into getting aroused?

    I’m afraid that I’m still not convinced that we are talking about the same experience. Boys have much more basic fantasies than girls and so masturbate much younger. I don’t see how a 4 year old girl could possibly experience true sexual arousal.

    I have not found anyone professional or otherwise (worldwide) who is willing to talk about this subject. I have paid serious sums of money to be told that I am perfectly normal and that it is my expectations that are at fault. Most women evidently never expect to experience orgasm during sex.

    I’m afraid you still haven’t really explained how you get turned on enough for orgasm. Women are spontaneously aroused (they don’t approach sex with an erection or get erections each morning as men do). Women also do not respond to the male body the way that men respond to women’s bodies. If they did then women would pay for lap-dancing and pole-dancing just as men do.

    Kind regards,
    Jane

    Comment by Jane — May 18, 2010 @ 5:56 pm

53. Jane _ I was able to masturbate to orgasm without fantasying early on I used to squeeze my legs often when laying on my stomach on a pillow – with no fantasy. The fantasies came in if I wanted to increase the strength of my orgasm or I was having trouble in reaching an orgasm. Once I learned more about the clitoris – I developed new ways. If I was in a satisfying ( as I previously described sexual relationship) I didn’t masturbate much – just when I felt sexual tension and was home alone. Some time when I read something that sexually stimulated me ( not porn or reading to become sexually stimulated or saw a film then I would masturbate when I had an opportunity. I think becoming aware of sexual feelings triggered my need to masturbate. I have also been able to fantasize when with a partner or to change my position so the my clit was more directly stimulated. I think that Ihave been selfish and worried more about my orgasm than his. I know that I was even younger than four – I don’t know how it started but I know my parents would object yo my “rubbing” and so I learned to do this when they were not around. I can’t explain why oe how just that I did experience feelings of sexual tension (not that I know that that was sexual) and would squeeze my legs and rub on a pillow. In fact that interfered with the development of other techniques until I learned more about the clit. I think that some times when we get too focused on having an orgasm it intefers with achieving one – this is something like Masters and Johns referring to”spectatoring” focusing on how we are doing rather than focusing on the sensations. I did continue to masturbate as an adult but the frequency has decreased. I think my body triggered the need to masturbate and not the other way around. perhaps we are talking about different levels of sexual drive. I think you ought to try and get a copy of the Heiman and Lopiccollo book – the give explicit directions as how to free up your body for orgasm. By the way, I found that stimulating my breasts also added to the intensity of my orgasm. By the way – I have had lovers with bodies that were a real turn on. Others whose charisma and sexuality was a real turn on. I often found that I would be turned on by a specific person and feel sexual tension and if I responded and we went to bed this effected the intensity of my sexual feelings and orgasm ( again with indicating what I wanted and control what was happening as much as possible. If I spent some time talking and getting to know the person – that often killed the sexual feeling. My impression is that you pay to much attention to what is going on and are not focused on your sensations, Check out that book Marilyn

    Comment by Marilyn P. Safir — May 18, 2010 @ 7:14 pm

54. Marilyn,

    I certainly believe that different generations have different expectations. It has always been quite clear to me that sex is way more important to men than it tends to be to women. I’m not sure how you even remember as far back as four years old. I certainly can’t imagine that such feelings were similar to a true adult orgasm. Women rarely pay for sex as many men do and this has to mean that the rewards are different. In fact women almost always look for a relationship or financial reward for sex.

    I have been able to orgasm through masturbation since the age of seventeen when I discovered how to use sexual fantasies to generate the sexual arousal required for orgasm. I think our experiences are so different as to make it impossible to usefully compare notes. You will be interested to know that GoAskAlice! advises that women rarely orgasm through intercourse and that many women never orgasm through intercourse. There is evidently a wide range of opinions on this subject.

    Thanks anyway for engaging. It’s always useful to get another perspective.

    Kind regards,
    Jane

    Comment by Jane — May 18, 2010 @ 8:57 pm

55. Dear Jane,
    I would like to comment on one aspect of your posts. Men’s orgasm is NOT necessary for reproduction; ejaculation is. Male orgasm and ejaculation are physiologically separate events. That they often occur spontaneously in adolescent and younger adult me and are perceived to be the same are not equivalent to a identical physiological process.
    There is also controversy and literature discussing the role of female orgasm to reproductive success. Helen Fisher has written about this.
    Regards,
    Pat Whelehan

    Comment by Patricia Whelehan — May 20, 2010 @ 9:12 am

56. Dear Pat,

    Thanks for your comment. In fact, I already replied to Alain on this issue which is tangential to my main point.

    I am aware that ejaculation and male orgasm are not always coincident. However, my understanding is that for the most part they are.

    I certainly think it unlikely that men are interested in all that porn and willing to pay for sex all over the world for the pleasure of ejaculating. I would assume their interest is in orgasm but luckily for the survival of the human race this interest often leads to reproduction especially when a man ejaculates inside a woman’s vagina.

    This reproductive biology explains why our heterosexual society puts vaginal intercourse at the centre of sex. It does not however mean that vaginal intercourse is the most likely activity that leads to female orgasm because female orgasm has little to do with reproduction.

    This is my main point.

    Kind regards,
    Jane

    Comment by Jane — May 20, 2010 @ 5:57 pm

57. Dear Jane,
    I agree with you except for your last point that “female orgasm has little to do with reproduction.” That is a controversial topic and is debated within the evolution of sex within anthropology.
    Regards,
    Pat

    Comment by Patricia Whelehan — May 27, 2010 @ 7:32 am

58. Pat,

    What I mean is that a woman can conceive without ever experiencing orgasm. This explains why many women never experience orgasm throughout the whole of their lives by any means. It also explains why so few women are concerned about orgasm.

    Despite the knowledge that clitoral stimulation is required for orgasm, our heterosexual society still officially supports vaginal intercourse as the key ‘love-making’ act. Clearly female sexual arousal is not an issue for most couples.

    Vaginal intercourse provides men with the stimulation they need for orgasm. It also allows a woman to take a passive role in sex by facilitating male orgasm rather than aiming for her own. Oral sex and mutual masturbation require more effort and are more explicitly sexual.

    Regards,
    Jane

    Comment by Jane — May 27, 2010 @ 11:33 am

59. Jane,
    We agree on these points.
    Pat

    Comment by Patricia Whelehan — May 28, 2010 @ 2:44 pm

60. JT, congrats on this site. I appreciate it. In reference to your stories, it is rare to hear a positive note like yours. I have only met a handful of women who have the fortitude to even mention let along give opinion or guidance.

    Muito obrigado, Abraco,

    Nathaniel

    Comment by Nathaniel Hines — June 8, 2010 @ 9:53 am

61. I don’t understand why more women don’t speak out about sex. On the other hand, I know how difficult it has been for me. As soon as you say anything other than sex is blissful, the whole world comes down on you.

    I am trying to bring more realism and factual information to sex advice for women. I believe that the current popular belief that sex is totally amazing all of the time silences people.

    Thanks again,

    Jane

    Comment by Jane — June 8, 2010 @ 3:28 pm

62. Conditioning I imagine. Folks from different countries do have different systems built in, but the universal standard still seems to be to withhold true feelings.

    I will share your website with all the women I think can handle it. Maybe I’m part of the problem. I immediately think some can and some can’t.

    NH2

    Comment by Nathaniel Hines — June 9, 2010 @ 12:35 pm

63. No, you’re right about women. So many of them take offence at even the mention of the word ‘sex’. You’d think it was a plague or a crime or something.

    Other times I have been amazed when a woman I really wasn’t expecting to be open, has just sat down and launched into a complete sexual history totally without embarrassment.

    The problem is that you just can’t tell. Even with the experience of treading carefully, I have a trail of women behind me who will probably never talk to me again just in case I ever try to talk to them about sex.

    And we’re supposed to live in liberated times!

    Jane

    Comment by Jane — June 9, 2010 @ 6:58 pm

64. Forgive my assumption. Attached is something that I thought you would be interested in.

    http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/35799928/ns/health-sexual_health/

    Comment by Nathaniel Hines — June 21, 2010 @ 10:00 am

65. Thanks for your interest. Sex is a subject I always enjoy comparing notes on, whatever people’s views!

    I read the report with interest but as usual they never deliver as much content as the headline implies. I’m not sure that asserting that everyone’s sex life runs down by the age of 70 is telling us anything new…

    The challenge seems to be getting any acknowledgement that men and women in the prime of life also have very different attitudes and potential to ‘enjoy’ sex (through arousal and orgasm).

    Even on the internet I get banned from so many sites just because sex is a subject they categorise with gaming, crime etc. even though my site is providing information and facts that teenagers should be told.

    Don’t worry, I’m committed to this now so no giving up. Who knows one day I may even succeed. If that day arrives I will definitely owe a debt to all those who have been supportive along the way (especially AllVoices.com).

    Thanks again for your interest. Maybe one day the British Medical Association will print something I have written!

    Kind regards,
    Jane

    Comment by Jane — June 21, 2010 @ 7:42 pm

66. http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/38006774/ns/health-sexual_health/

    Comment by Nathaniel Hines — July 7, 2010 @ 10:08 pm

67. Thanks for that! Still women are in denial and men just can’t believe it’s true… What amazes me is that there are so few couples who are interested in knowing the truth and doing something about it i.e. having more mutually enjoyable sex. I am struggling to know how to get more publicity but will try producing a book based on my website later in the year to see if that works. Thanks for your interest in this subject and your support. Kind regards, Jane

    Comment by Jane — July 7, 2010 @ 11:34 pm

68. As they say here, da nada.

    Comment by Nathaniel Hines — July 8, 2010 @ 10:09 am

69. Hello,
    I’m new in this forum but i hope I’ll get lot of things to enjoy.

    Comment by Sonia5 — July 13, 2010 @ 8:46 am

70. Welcome – please make as many comments as you can!

    Comment by Jane — July 13, 2010 @ 10:20 am

71. http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/life-style/health-fitness/health/Two-third-of-women-face-orgasm-problems/articleshow/6226906.cms

    How can lack of orgasm be sexually dysfunctional if it is the experience of two thirds of all woman??? And who knows if the remaining one third truly does orgasm anyway and exacly when do they orgasm (I’m guessing during masturbation alone)? Interesting to note that older women have less problem with orgasm – possibly they never expected to orgasm during sex in the first place?

    I would be interested in members’ comments on this…

    Comment by Jane — July 31, 2010 @ 10:11 am

72. Hi Jane,
    I registered under my other email and got it. I couldn’t find the stories of other successful couples reaching orgasm through intercourse though. Link?
    This is my goal. My wife has never had it (maybe accidently once but I don’t think so) and I don’t think she understands what she is missing out on
    (emotionally) not just physically. I am a health nut and physically fit.
    She use to be but not so much now. I am trying to get her back interested in fitness and she is showing progress. She was much more fit before I met her.
    Women that are physically fit orgasm much more easily from my experience.

    Improved intimacy is more than just a smile on her face. It creates a stronger emotional bond with your spouse. If they have never had that “level above” intimacy, I don’t think they understand what a “big deal” it really is.

    Thanks for your site.
    Curtis

    Comment by ilovemywife — August 23, 2010 @ 9:39 am

73. Hi Curtis,

    Thanks for your enthusiastic support.

    Unfortunately, you may have misinterpreted my site. I am suggesting that true female orgasm comes from psychological arousal by means of fantasy and physical stimulation of the clitoris (the female sex organ). Intercourse is a reproductive act that includes male orgasm as a matter of course. Female orgasm is not required for a woman to conceive and so intercourse provides neither the arousal nor the stimulation that a woman needs for orgasm.

    First a woman needs to learn how to masturbate herself to orgasm. Please look at my story explaining this. If your wife is not interested in sexual fantasies and masturbation then she is unlikely to ever experience orgasm by any means.

    Secondly a woman needs to use her orgasm techniques learned from masturbation (physical – stimulation of the clitoris and psychological – use of sexual fantasies) and apply them to sex with a partner. My site exists to ask how many women succeed with this.

    Personally I suspect that few do since I get very few responses on this. If you read the intro to the Member Forum you will see the links to the various stories that I recommend people read.

    Please read my site – it is sex education for adults. Only once you understand the facts can you appreciate women’s sexuality for what it is. Women are not made to orgasm as readily as men do. They are capable of orgasm but most commonly alone because they tend to need sexual fantasy for arousal. Women are not aroused by a lover’s body as men are so fantasy is the substitute.

    Many women find it difficult or impossible to use their sexual fantasies during sex. Nature does not need women to orgasm during sex and so unfortunately it is much rarer than the stories would have you believe.

    A woman is lucky if she experiences orgasm by any means.

    Kind regards,
    Jane

    Comment by Jane — August 23, 2010 @ 11:28 am

74. I like how your site is organized and the font styles and colors. Very feminine and artistic. I am trying to gather some info on it to improve my intimacy with my wife. It is already good, but I would like to take it to a higher level. She seems very satisfied with our intimacy, but I know there is a greater kind that brings an even deeper bond that I don’t think she realizes. She said she will be open to try things, but its up to me to research it. I am anxious for the day when bigger things happen and she says, now I know why you were so interested in this. I didn’t know it could be this good.

    We are 41 and 47, but act younger than our age. Ha

    Curtis

    Comment by ilovemywife — August 30, 2010 @ 3:32 pm

75. Curtis,

    I think you need to read the content of my site to understand what I am saying. You have a lot of preconceptions and my site is asking people to re-think sex.

    I am asking men to think about how they enjoy sexual arousal and orgasm. It is not realistic to think that women can enjoy the same experiences without investing a similar amount of effort. Most women do not masturbate, for example. You have to think why this is. My conclusion is that women experience much lower levels of sexual arousal than men typically do.

    This explains why so few women masturbate. A woman can happily go for the whole of her life and never experience orgasm but be completely happy. Orgasm is not the ‘big deal’ that it is to men. Women are looking more for emotional intimacy since orgasm is more elusive. It’s difficult for a man to understand this because their experience of sex is so different.

    I was disappointed when sex was non-orgasmic because I knew what orgasm was from masturbation. Most women never know and so have nothing to miss. Your wife most likely does not feel that she is missing anything.

    My conclusion is that female orgasm is much easier during masturbation alone than with a partner. So you have to think what your goal is here. Do you really want her to know what orgasm is or to be more engaged during sex with you? She is likely to engage on sex more if you provide some of the things she wants: romance, companionship and morale support.

    Jane

    Comment by Jane — August 30, 2010 @ 6:02 pm

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